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HY7 (#6231)
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6-Mar-2007 08:03:58 Quality: 0.

I'll provide you with an example comparing the two methods. I am uncertain about the outcome of this, you might actually be right . I'm not 100% sure about the validity of the data, so don't quote me on it. For simplicity, SSes will be left out (everything just multiplied by 50% as CFs and Mines have the same max SS).

Assume you have 10k land and you are using 20% CFs like you suggested. That is 2k CFs. CFs produce 93 bcs per turn, so you will make 186,000 BCs per turn. Now you have 8k mines. Assume you have 200% steeler discos, and 125% in profile. For Mines and War Factories % efficiency is given by (3/7)*(%specialized/100)+(4/7). Say mines produce 105 steel per territory per turn (I actually think it is higher now, which would support not mixing even further).
EDIT: Your country formula testing (#450) has been created HY7. 20 mines produces Steel: +2,887 , which works out to 144.35 steel per territory per turn.

That means you produce 8000*2*1.25*[(3/7)*(0.8)+(4/7)]*144.35 steel per turn, which works out to 2,639,543 steel per turn.

Now if you had 10k pure mines, you would make 10000*2*1.25*144.35 steel per turn, which works out to 3,608,750 steel per turn.

The difference in production is an extra 969,207 steel per turn versus 186,000 Bcs per turn. For the two methods to be equal, the price of bcs must be 969207/186000 = 5.21x the price of steel. Assume you can sell steel for 25..BCs would have to be @130 for the two strats to work out.

So in conclusion, don't mix.

However, there is one case where mixing might work: the very start of the startup. This is for a couple reasons:
1) you have 0% discos, so the 5.21 can be divided by 2, giving 2.61.
2) you will be selling steel at 12

Combining those two facts, if bcs are above 31.3 (which they are at ALL times), it is infact better to mix. As I stated before, SS does not change the ratios.

SO the real conclusion:

Mix BCs at a 20% ratio in when:

2.61*mining disco% < (price of bcs)/(price of steel)

I could make a generalized formula for how much you should mix (What %), but it would not be very useful because the market is not constant through a set and you cannot all of a sudden change your territory percentages. The limit would be pretty close to 40% or so (if BCs were 150 [would be technically a bit cheaper once private market offsets cost] and steel was 12), at which point you should abandon your mines and convert to 100% bcer. The other limit (obviously) would be 0% CFs.

Oh and the above method does NOT work for other strats, for the following reasons:
1) Techer does not produce while attacking.
2) Not all strats can sell 100% of their production, leading to some weird formulas depending on the # of sales you can make.
3) Different strats have different max disco rates, different profile rates, different specialization hits, different production values, and even different sale prices.

But yes, calculating mixing is a !@$#ton of work. It is better to save you some work and just go pure steeler LIKE YOU WERE TOLD.

Oh !@$#, you are right Ripper, I changed profile in FS.

144.35 / 1.25 = 1.148 ~ 1.15


SO the REAL conclusion:

Mix BCs at a 20% ratio in when:

2.09*mining disco% < (price of bcs)/(price of steel)

[ -- Message edited on: 6-Mar-2007 08:19:34 by HY7 (#6231) -- ]

Ripper (#5)
Premium/Plus Member
6-Mar-2007 08:13:32 Quality: 0.

Base steel = 115.5 (105 + the 10% increase)
orion (#28695)
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6-Mar-2007 15:54:13 Quality: 0.

Well, I think that makes a mdicum of sense. I stop building CFs at ~3k or so territories, when I start building up mining discos. Or even stop a few turns before that, just so I have enough BCs to cover getting to my pausing point. That's usually the # of territories I come OON with. This time, I started converting the CFs & bakeries back to mines & barracks (for seals) when I started selling steel on public (and therefore had more cash on hand), shortly before OON time.

The advantages of doing it that the math doesn't acurately portray:
1) Free from the randomness of the market. If bread or BCs spike, it doesn't screw anything up. Also doesn't help out anyone else's startup ;)
2) Makes for an easy, linear land progression. Before, I was having some difficulties with deciding how much bread/BCs to buy & when. Buy too little or too much and it can really throw the rhythm off.

Ringmasta (#28493)
TEQ Game Account
6-Mar-2007 22:03:02 Quality: 0.

The handful of times I did a steel startup, I found that it was definitely superior to build cement factories in addition to steel.... until 3k land when you start getting discos. There was a significant difference to my OON country between the two approaches to the steel startup, very much in favor of mixing. Argument by anecdote, but there it is.

Of course, I think orion stole my steeler startup, so it shouldn't be too surprising that he does it the same way. ;)

Ringmasta (#28493)
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6-Mar-2007 22:22:27 Quality: 0.

Oh... thanks for doing the math on that HY7... I was far too lazy to do that myself.
HY7 (#6231)
Premium/Plus Member
6-Mar-2007 23:13:16 Quality: 0.

Yeah Orion/Ringmasta, that sounds like the optimum build for steelie/cementer. As the math shows, without discos and with steel at 12, it is a good idea to mix.

Orion, a rough rule for how many BCs you should spend is to take your cash on hand, and buy 1/3rd of the total bcs you can buy. If bcs are from 35-45 you should be pretty close to the amount you need to buy to assign land.

As for bakeries, it is only a small price to pay for market independence. I just assign bakeries if I see that the market is going to be expensive or sold out. Otherwise I just leave it (works well ~80% of the time).

nazgul_9 (#27712)
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2-Nov-2009 16:51:44 Quality: 0.

is this profile still the same, or has it changed? becaus the game is now another "generation"?
Colonel Chaos (#182)
Premium/Plus Member
2-Nov-2009 20:18:12 Quality: 0.

a lot of this has changed... there are still SS and old formulas around... u just gotta find a way apst all the outdated crap ;)
General Patton (#37946)
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3-Feb-2010 20:33:42 Quality: -1.

do not mix This is not Kingory
produce lots of steel
I consume 32K steel at 1100 acres
and none of this 100K @ $100 junk either

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